As Stacy said, Sigmund Freud himself was part of the atheist movement, and offered his opinion that religion exists not because there is a God, but because Christians want there to be a God.
The claim survives, but I would like to note that psychoanalysts were not at all in agreement about this claim. It is certainly not a widely held view by among practitioners today.
I recall reading literature of the early psychoanalysts who broke away from Freud on the topic. Most of us believed it was a circular argument. A parent might wish that their missing child was alive somewhere. She might even dream the child is alive. No doubt her wishing her child was alive and her dreaming about her child are purely psychological phenomena. But the psychological mechanism of her wishing her child to be alive is completely independent of the actual fact of whether the child is alive. Similarly, I grant you the entire wish fulfillment argument. And it has no bearing whatsoever on whether there is a God.
I genuinely wonder what atheists see in this argument of Freud. At best it leads to agnosticism.
I tend to believe poor Freud was invoked by atheists merely because he was popular at the time, and therefore useful to atheism. I just don't see any value to the argument beyond that.
My mistake and I did apologize to DN. If you want to flush out someone's interior motivation for
'engaging atheism' a simple thought experiment will do. If, for example, there is absolutely no hope
of cracking an atheist's shell, and nothing you say will have any impact, and they relate that to you,
it would seem that Einstein's blunt definition about someone who does the same thing over and over
but expecting different results is in play. However, if say, someone has an open enough mind to ADMIT there might be a path forward, into the light, then they are engaging atheism for quite the
Interesting post. Thank you so much for sharing. You may be interested in the work of Dr. Justin Shaun Coyle, who has some articles/lectures on how studying/engaging with Feuerbach, Nietzsche, and how some of these more continental Atheists can serve as a means to purify religious faith:
After a second read: of your exquisite trials and mission to understand, I came away with this quote
that is somewhat a tell. and wonder if you can correct or enlighten me - “Any theist who tells you he never doubts the afterlife is not being honest.”
This statement makes me wonder, if, after years of being an atheist, some residual effect of that condition still resides as a latent challenge to someone's newfound and permanent faith. Having had 12 years of parochial education, I, and many millions of others, gifted with this blessing can say, unequivocally, ‘never’, with absolute surety.
I believe t is impossible to reverse engineer faith to doubt, once it is instilled and quickened. Now, despair – “. . . why has Thou forsaken Me” – is another matter that fits perfectly with the five emotes of dying : denial, anger, bargaining, DEPRESSION, acceptance. Five years a Hospice volunteer reminded me that the nuns always emphasized that everyone of faith WILL have Hope removed from their life for the briefest of time to see what it was that Jesus experienced before the final submission is reached.
“ Feuerbach’s influence was significant, and I want to think about why. “
I’m sincerely fascinated by your fascination with shallow, boring people whom we know, are WRONG.
With it, man has conjured up a father/judge who condemns his own son to death because he, as man,
is guilty. A god can “only do this as a rational, not as an emotional being” (34). The Crucifixion is us killing ourselves. The solution is to stop seeing God as something other realize we are that god.
ALL atheists are angry in their interior being. They are MAD about our God, our gift, our faith. What motivates them to go on the offense is an absolute contempt for those who possess something they do not consider feasible.
Wow, wow. This is really good. I read some sections of Essence of Christianity a few weeks ago in preparation for a YouTube video on wish fulfillment and Christianity. I love the way you took his concerns seriously instead of going for the easy "his logic here isn't valid" approach. When I did my 5 minute YouTube video I mentioned Feuerbach but didn't engage with him directly since I knew I would have to show him some real respect and do some deeper reading.
He's a bit like Nietzsche - I disagree with a lot of what he says about Christianity but he's not going to go away easily. I also think of the very Platonic scene from Prince Caspian where the witch tries to convince them Narnia is a product of their desires.
Marx was heavily influenced by Feuerbach, saying we all need to be “baptized in the Feuerbach” — literally “brook of fire.” (Or so says Bishop Barron). I found that imagery and where it leads just fascinating.
As Stacy said, Sigmund Freud himself was part of the atheist movement, and offered his opinion that religion exists not because there is a God, but because Christians want there to be a God.
The claim survives, but I would like to note that psychoanalysts were not at all in agreement about this claim. It is certainly not a widely held view by among practitioners today.
I recall reading literature of the early psychoanalysts who broke away from Freud on the topic. Most of us believed it was a circular argument. A parent might wish that their missing child was alive somewhere. She might even dream the child is alive. No doubt her wishing her child was alive and her dreaming about her child are purely psychological phenomena. But the psychological mechanism of her wishing her child to be alive is completely independent of the actual fact of whether the child is alive. Similarly, I grant you the entire wish fulfillment argument. And it has no bearing whatsoever on whether there is a God.
I genuinely wonder what atheists see in this argument of Freud. At best it leads to agnosticism.
I tend to believe poor Freud was invoked by atheists merely because he was popular at the time, and therefore useful to atheism. I just don't see any value to the argument beyond that.
My humble opinion.
My mistake and I did apologize to DN. If you want to flush out someone's interior motivation for
'engaging atheism' a simple thought experiment will do. If, for example, there is absolutely no hope
of cracking an atheist's shell, and nothing you say will have any impact, and they relate that to you,
it would seem that Einstein's blunt definition about someone who does the same thing over and over
but expecting different results is in play. However, if say, someone has an open enough mind to ADMIT there might be a path forward, into the light, then they are engaging atheism for quite the
opposite reason.
Your Welcome. But then again, you'll probably never feel as much guilt as a cradle Catholic either.
Interesting post. Thank you so much for sharing. You may be interested in the work of Dr. Justin Shaun Coyle, who has some articles/lectures on how studying/engaging with Feuerbach, Nietzsche, and how some of these more continental Atheists can serve as a means to purify religious faith:
https://publicorthodoxy.org/2021/05/20/teaching-atheism-to-seminarians/
https://www.orthoanalytika.org/2021/05/26/justin-coyle-on-learning-from-atheists/
After a second read: of your exquisite trials and mission to understand, I came away with this quote
that is somewhat a tell. and wonder if you can correct or enlighten me - “Any theist who tells you he never doubts the afterlife is not being honest.”
This statement makes me wonder, if, after years of being an atheist, some residual effect of that condition still resides as a latent challenge to someone's newfound and permanent faith. Having had 12 years of parochial education, I, and many millions of others, gifted with this blessing can say, unequivocally, ‘never’, with absolute surety.
I believe t is impossible to reverse engineer faith to doubt, once it is instilled and quickened. Now, despair – “. . . why has Thou forsaken Me” – is another matter that fits perfectly with the five emotes of dying : denial, anger, bargaining, DEPRESSION, acceptance. Five years a Hospice volunteer reminded me that the nuns always emphasized that everyone of faith WILL have Hope removed from their life for the briefest of time to see what it was that Jesus experienced before the final submission is reached.
“ Feuerbach’s influence was significant, and I want to think about why. “
I’m sincerely fascinated by your fascination with shallow, boring people whom we know, are WRONG.
With it, man has conjured up a father/judge who condemns his own son to death because he, as man,
is guilty. A god can “only do this as a rational, not as an emotional being” (34). The Crucifixion is us killing ourselves. The solution is to stop seeing God as something other realize we are that god.
ALL atheists are angry in their interior being. They are MAD about our God, our gift, our faith. What motivates them to go on the offense is an absolute contempt for those who possess something they do not consider feasible.
Wow, wow. This is really good. I read some sections of Essence of Christianity a few weeks ago in preparation for a YouTube video on wish fulfillment and Christianity. I love the way you took his concerns seriously instead of going for the easy "his logic here isn't valid" approach. When I did my 5 minute YouTube video I mentioned Feuerbach but didn't engage with him directly since I knew I would have to show him some real respect and do some deeper reading.
He's a bit like Nietzsche - I disagree with a lot of what he says about Christianity but he's not going to go away easily. I also think of the very Platonic scene from Prince Caspian where the witch tries to convince them Narnia is a product of their desires.
Loved the tone of this. Keep writing!
Marx was heavily influenced by Feuerbach, saying we all need to be “baptized in the Feuerbach” — literally “brook of fire.” (Or so says Bishop Barron). I found that imagery and where it leads just fascinating.